From b43ea6ca9b24067ee5d4775383a09c46233119df Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 From: Samuel Thibault Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 13:29:39 +0100 Subject: Categorize FAQs more --- faq/support/2_gib_partition_limit.mdwn | 13 +++++++ faq/support/64bit.mdwn | 17 +++++++++ faq/support/binary_compatibility.mdwn | 33 +++++++++++++++++ faq/support/fuse_support.mdwn | 14 ++++++++ faq/support/how_about_drivers.mdwn | 18 ++++++++++ faq/support/network_transparency.mdwn | 22 ++++++++++++ faq/support/posix_compatibility.mdwn | 32 +++++++++++++++++ faq/support/posix_compatibility/discussion.mdwn | 25 +++++++++++++ faq/support/ram_limit.mdwn | 22 ++++++++++++ faq/support/sata_disk_drives.mdwn | 17 +++++++++ faq/support/sharing_the_user_space.mdwn | 23 ++++++++++++ faq/support/smp.mdwn | 28 +++++++++++++++ faq/support/system_port.mdwn | 47 +++++++++++++++++++++++++ 13 files changed, 311 insertions(+) create mode 100644 faq/support/2_gib_partition_limit.mdwn create mode 100644 faq/support/64bit.mdwn create mode 100644 faq/support/binary_compatibility.mdwn create mode 100644 faq/support/fuse_support.mdwn create mode 100644 faq/support/how_about_drivers.mdwn create mode 100644 faq/support/network_transparency.mdwn create mode 100644 faq/support/posix_compatibility.mdwn create mode 100644 faq/support/posix_compatibility/discussion.mdwn create mode 100644 faq/support/ram_limit.mdwn create mode 100644 faq/support/sata_disk_drives.mdwn create mode 100644 faq/support/sharing_the_user_space.mdwn create mode 100644 faq/support/smp.mdwn create mode 100644 faq/support/system_port.mdwn (limited to 'faq/support') diff --git a/faq/support/2_gib_partition_limit.mdwn b/faq/support/2_gib_partition_limit.mdwn new file mode 100644 index 00000000..726605f9 --- /dev/null +++ b/faq/support/2_gib_partition_limit.mdwn @@ -0,0 +1,13 @@ +[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2007, 2008 Free Software Foundation, Inc."]] + +[[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable +id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this +document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or +any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant +Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license +is included in the section entitled +[[GNU Free Documentation License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] + +[[!meta title="Is there still a 2 GiB Partition Limit ?"]] + +The 2 GiB limit has been removed in Debian GNU/Hurd. diff --git a/faq/support/64bit.mdwn b/faq/support/64bit.mdwn new file mode 100644 index 00000000..5b899b55 --- /dev/null +++ b/faq/support/64bit.mdwn @@ -0,0 +1,17 @@ +[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2013 Free Software Foundation, +Inc."]] + +[[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable +id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this +document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or +any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant +Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license +is included in the section entitled [[GNU Free Documentation +License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] + +[[!meta title="Is there a 64bit version?"]] + +There are currently no plan for 64bit userland, but there are plans for 64bit +kernelland + 32bit userland, which will notably permit to efficiently make use +of more than 2GiB memory and provide 4GiB userland addressing space. Work on +this is currently in branches in GNU Mach. diff --git a/faq/support/binary_compatibility.mdwn b/faq/support/binary_compatibility.mdwn new file mode 100644 index 00000000..e9dfcdb8 --- /dev/null +++ b/faq/support/binary_compatibility.mdwn @@ -0,0 +1,33 @@ +[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2012 Free Software Foundation, Inc."]] + +[[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable +id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this +document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or +any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant +Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license +is included in the section entitled [[GNU Free Documentation +License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] + +[[!tag open_issue_documentation]] + +IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2012-01-13: + + sothere's absolutelyno way,evenslowly to run i386 linuxcode + under hurd/i386? Ihave a small app, commercial, which I have to get + running there + no source + no way + you'd need to create a userspace linux server catching linux + system calls and calling hurd specific stuff to implement them + it doesn't exist, it may be hard to implement + some cases will definitely be hard to implement + so, no magic linux lxemu on windows? + or linuxemu on plan9 + nope + I remember somethingsilly, sonmone hadcompiled linux asauser + applicationon plan9 and inserted his own binaries as + acodeobject,toberunon plan9, for useon ibm hpc hatrdware + it was ron minich + 5e.iwp9.org/slides/linuxemu.pdf + I think that was it + google for linux & cnk for additional clues diff --git a/faq/support/fuse_support.mdwn b/faq/support/fuse_support.mdwn new file mode 100644 index 00000000..8867d954 --- /dev/null +++ b/faq/support/fuse_support.mdwn @@ -0,0 +1,14 @@ +[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2013 Free Software Foundation, +Inc."]] + +[[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable +id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this +document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or +any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant +Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license +is included in the section entitled [[GNU Free Documentation +License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] + +[[!meta title="Does Hurd support FUSE?"]] + +There is a start of work on implementing a [[FUSE|hurd/libfuse]] library on Hurd; its support is not updated to the latest version, but at least some fuse filesystems do work already. diff --git a/faq/support/how_about_drivers.mdwn b/faq/support/how_about_drivers.mdwn new file mode 100644 index 00000000..974fb612 --- /dev/null +++ b/faq/support/how_about_drivers.mdwn @@ -0,0 +1,18 @@ +[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2009, 2013 Free Software Foundation, Inc."]] + +[[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable +id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this +document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or +any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant +Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license +is included in the section entitled [[GNU Free Documentation +License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] + +[[!meta title="What drivers does GNU/Hurd have?"]] + +Currently, for disks Mach integrates drivers from Linux 2.0 through some +[[community/gsoc/project_ideas/driver_glue_code]]. As it's very old, that +limits hardware support a lot, of course. For network boards, we use the +[[DDE]] toolkit to run linux 2.6.32 drivers in userland processes, +which provides both long-term support for new hardware and safety against driver +bugs. diff --git a/faq/support/network_transparency.mdwn b/faq/support/network_transparency.mdwn new file mode 100644 index 00000000..aefaf500 --- /dev/null +++ b/faq/support/network_transparency.mdwn @@ -0,0 +1,22 @@ +[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2012 Free Software Foundation, Inc."]] + +[[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable +id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this +document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or +any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant +Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license +is included in the section entitled [[GNU Free Documentation +License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] + +[[!tag open_issue_documentation]] + +IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2012-01-21: + + is it possible to transfer servers running on one microkernel + on one machine, to another microkernel running on a different machine? + two machines will be running the complete os + well, if the code for network-transparent IPC still existed, it + might be possible to move a task to another machine, while keeping the + port associations with the original system... + if you mean actually moving it to another system, that's pretty + much impossible in any system that has stateful interfaces diff --git a/faq/support/posix_compatibility.mdwn b/faq/support/posix_compatibility.mdwn new file mode 100644 index 00000000..4490b7cb --- /dev/null +++ b/faq/support/posix_compatibility.mdwn @@ -0,0 +1,32 @@ +[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2010, 2011 Free Software Foundation, Inc."]] + +[[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable +id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this +document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or +any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant +Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license +is included in the section entitled [[GNU Free Documentation +License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] + +[[!meta title="POSIX compatibility"]] + +Is it favorable of rather a hindrance to be compatible to POSIX and similar +standards? + +A lot of things in POSIX et al. are designed for [[UNIX]]-like systems with +traditional monolithic [[kernel]]s. + +Thus, a [[microkernel]]-based system, as ours is, has to employ a bunch of +detours, for example to implement the [[`fork` system call|glibc/fork]]. + +On the other hand, (mostly) complying to these standards, made a really big +body of software *just work* without any (or just trivial) [[hurd/porting]]. +Especially so for command-line programs, and libraries. + +But: a large part of today's user programs are not written according to POSIX +et al. low-level interfaces, but against GNOME, GTK+2, and other high-level +frameworks and libraries. It may be a valid option to enrich these instead of +striving for total POSIX compliance -- and the high-level programs (that is, +their users) may not even notice this, but we would avoid a lot of overhead +that comes with wrapping the [[Hurd interfaces|hurd/interface]] to be POSIX +compliant. diff --git a/faq/support/posix_compatibility/discussion.mdwn b/faq/support/posix_compatibility/discussion.mdwn new file mode 100644 index 00000000..0d722c9e --- /dev/null +++ b/faq/support/posix_compatibility/discussion.mdwn @@ -0,0 +1,25 @@ +[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2010, 2011 Free Software Foundation, Inc."]] + +[[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable +id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this +document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or +any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant +Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license +is included in the section entitled [[GNU Free Documentation +License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] + +[[!tag open_issue_documentation]] + +\#hurd IRC channel on Freenode, 2010-12-21: + + tschwinge: the writeup ignores the fact that POSIX compatibility + is not only for applications, but also for users familiar with the UNIX + environment + also, I still don't buy the fact that most software is not written + for POSIX. even if assuming that GNOME programs don't use POSIX (which is + only half true), there is a lot of other software in a system that is + just as important, though less visible + (server software, startup system, device management, automation, + ...) + tschwinge: BTW, I meant to (and partially did) write a blog + article on this topic -- but I didn't get around to finish it... diff --git a/faq/support/ram_limit.mdwn b/faq/support/ram_limit.mdwn new file mode 100644 index 00000000..4043203e --- /dev/null +++ b/faq/support/ram_limit.mdwn @@ -0,0 +1,22 @@ +[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2007, 2008, 2013 Free Software Foundation, +Inc."]] + +[[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable +id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this +document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or +any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant +Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license +is included in the section entitled [[GNU Free Documentation +License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] + +[[!meta title="830 MiB RAM Limit"]] + +Just like any 32bit OS without bad tricks, GNU Mach can not cope well with lots +of memory. Latest versions of the Debian `gnumach` package will limit themselves +to around 1.7 GiB of memory. If you want more, you can twiddle the `VM_MAX_ADDRESS` +limit between kernelland and userland in `i386/include/mach/i386/vm_param.h`. + +If you have an older version, or still experience problems with `vmstat` (see +above) reported much less memory than you have, the best is to limit the memory +it can see via GRUB's `upppermem` feature. Add `uppermem 786432` to GRUB's Hurd +entry in `menu.lst`. diff --git a/faq/support/sata_disk_drives.mdwn b/faq/support/sata_disk_drives.mdwn new file mode 100644 index 00000000..2edaa610 --- /dev/null +++ b/faq/support/sata_disk_drives.mdwn @@ -0,0 +1,17 @@ +[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2008 Free Software Foundation, Inc."]] + +[[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable +id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this +document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or +any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant +Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license +is included in the section entitled +[[GNU Free Documentation License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] + +[[!meta title="Are SATA disk drives supported?"]] + +GNU Mach does not support SATA disk drives (`/dev/sda` etc. in GNU/Linux) +natively, so using `device:sd0s1` will not work, as sd* devices are for SCSI +drives only. +The only way to get those drives to work is to put them into compatibility mode +in the BIOS, if such an option exists. GNU Mach will then recognize them as hda etc. diff --git a/faq/support/sharing_the_user_space.mdwn b/faq/support/sharing_the_user_space.mdwn new file mode 100644 index 00000000..8702470a --- /dev/null +++ b/faq/support/sharing_the_user_space.mdwn @@ -0,0 +1,23 @@ +[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2010 Free Software Foundation, Inc."]] + +[[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable +id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this +document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or +any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant +Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license +is included in the section entitled [[GNU Free Documentation +License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] + +[[!meta title=" Could it be possible to have a system installation where you can +dual-boot using either the [[Linux]] kernel, or the GNU Hurd, so that +everything but the kernel is shared?]] + +Given that both Linux and GNU Hurd are using the [[ELF]] binary +format, this could indeed be made possible, if all programs agreed to rely on +only one abstraction layer, for example the standard C library ([[glibc]]). +(Additionally, for example for [[system call]]s that are not covered by glibc +calls, you'd need to be able to reliably trap and emulate these.) However, +Linux' and the GNU Hurd's [[ABI]]'s have sufficiently diverged, so that this is +not easy to do. That's why you can't currently install a system in this way, +but you need a separate installation of the userspace suited for the Linux +kernel, or the GNU Hurd. diff --git a/faq/support/smp.mdwn b/faq/support/smp.mdwn new file mode 100644 index 00000000..e95edcd2 --- /dev/null +++ b/faq/support/smp.mdwn @@ -0,0 +1,28 @@ +[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2009, 2011 Free Software Foundation, Inc."]] + +[[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable +id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this +document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or +any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant +Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license +is included in the section entitled [[GNU Free Documentation +License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] + +[[!meta title="Does GNU/Hurd support SMP/Multicore?"]] + +The Hurd servers themselves are multithreaded, so they should be able to take benefit of the parallelism brought by SMP/Multicore boxes. This has however never been tested yet because of the following. + +[[microkernel/Mach]] used to be running on SMP boxes like the [[!wikipedia +Intel_iPSC/860]], so principally has the required infrastructure. It has +however not yet been enhanced to support nowadays' SMP standards like ACPI, +etc. Also, [[GNU Mach|microkernel/mach/gnumach]]'s Linux device driver glue +code likely isn't SMP-safe. As this glue code layer is not used in the +[[microkernel/mach/gnumach/ports/Xen]] port of GNU Mach, the plan is to try it +in this enviroment first. + +[[!tag open_issue_gnumach open_issue_xen]] + +That is why for now GNU/Hurd will only use one logical processor (i.e. one core or one thread, depending on the socket type). + +Once this issue is solved, there are follow-up issues about +[[open_issues/multiprocessing]] and [[open_issues/multithreading]]. diff --git a/faq/support/system_port.mdwn b/faq/support/system_port.mdwn new file mode 100644 index 00000000..c831c36f --- /dev/null +++ b/faq/support/system_port.mdwn @@ -0,0 +1,47 @@ +[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2011 Free Software Foundation, Inc."]] + +[[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable +id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this +document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or +any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant +Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license +is included in the section entitled [[GNU Free Documentation +License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] + +[[!meta title="Doing a GNU/Hurd System Port"]] + +How difficult is it to port the GNU/Hurd system to run on another architecture? + +The GNU/Hurd system consists of [[/Hurd]] servers running as user-space +processes on top of the [[GNU Mach|microkernel/mach/gnumach]] microkernel. The +system functionality is usually accessed through the +[[POSIX|posix_compatibility]] interface that is provided by [[/glibc]] and +[[/libpthread]]. + +A whole-system port involves touching all these components, with varying +degree, of course. + +For a CPU architecture port, the microkernel is the most involved part, +followed by glibc and the threading library. + +The original [[microkernel/Mach]] microkernel was portable to a number of +architectures which were a lot more popular at the beginning of the 1990s than +they are now. + +The GNU/Hurd system is currently available for the x86 architecture. This +includes emulators such as [[hurd/running/QEMU]] (or KVM), or +[[hurd/running/VirtualBox]]. Besides this, there is a port for the [[Xen +domU|microkernel/mach/gnumach/ports/xen]] *sub-architecture*. + +Further on, there are some [[unfinished porting +attempts|microkernel/mach/gnumach/ports]] for the Alpha, MIPS and PowerPC +architectures. These have not been completed due to little developer interest. + +Another option is to do the port at a different layer: port the Hurd servers to +not run on the GNU Mach microkernel, but instead on top of [[another +microkernel|which_microkernel]]. Or, even by providing a Mach emulation layer +on top of a monolithic kernel. For example, there could be a port for [[having +Mach run as a POSIX user-space process|open_issues/mach_on_top_of_posix]], or +by implementing the [[Mach IPC|microkernel/mach/ipc]] facility (as well as +several others) as Linux kernel modules. While there have been some +experiments, no such port has been completed yet. -- cgit v1.2.3 From c60c722ef7ca212431f0f914aa5925d10e7c323e Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 From: Samuel Thibault Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 13:44:52 +0100 Subject: merge back old-stuff into plain pages. Reorder items --- faq/+how_many_developers.mdwn | 63 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ faq/+how_many_developers/discussion.mdwn | 65 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ faq/+release.mdwn | 15 ++++++++ faq/+still_useful.mdwn | 49 ++++++++++++++++++++++++ faq/+translator.mdwn | 3 ++ faq/asking.mdwn | 5 +++ faq/gnu.mdwn | 5 +++ faq/how_many_developers.mdwn | 63 ------------------------------- faq/how_many_developers/discussion.mdwn | 65 -------------------------------- faq/old/old-stuff.mdwn | 30 --------------- faq/release.mdwn | 15 -------- faq/running/df.mdwn | 2 +- faq/running/hurd_console.mdwn | 2 + faq/running/serial_console.mdwn | 4 ++ faq/sauce.mdwn | 3 ++ faq/still_useful.mdwn | 49 ------------------------ faq/support/+drivers.mdwn | 18 +++++++++ faq/support/+software.mdwn | 5 +++ faq/support/how_about_drivers.mdwn | 18 --------- faq/which_microkernel.mdwn | 2 +- 20 files changed, 239 insertions(+), 242 deletions(-) create mode 100644 faq/+how_many_developers.mdwn create mode 100644 faq/+how_many_developers/discussion.mdwn create mode 100644 faq/+release.mdwn create mode 100644 faq/+still_useful.mdwn create mode 100644 faq/+translator.mdwn create mode 100644 faq/asking.mdwn create mode 100644 faq/gnu.mdwn delete mode 100644 faq/how_many_developers.mdwn delete mode 100644 faq/how_many_developers/discussion.mdwn delete mode 100644 faq/old/old-stuff.mdwn delete mode 100644 faq/release.mdwn create mode 100644 faq/running/serial_console.mdwn create mode 100644 faq/sauce.mdwn delete mode 100644 faq/still_useful.mdwn create mode 100644 faq/support/+drivers.mdwn create mode 100644 faq/support/+software.mdwn delete mode 100644 faq/support/how_about_drivers.mdwn (limited to 'faq/support') diff --git a/faq/+how_many_developers.mdwn b/faq/+how_many_developers.mdwn new file mode 100644 index 00000000..a96e0576 --- /dev/null +++ b/faq/+how_many_developers.mdwn @@ -0,0 +1,63 @@ +[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2010, 2011 Free Software Foundation, Inc."]] + +[[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable +id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this +document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or +any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant +Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license +is included in the section entitled [[GNU Free Documentation +License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] + +[[!meta title="How many developers are working on the GNU Hurd, and why so +few?"]] + + +# How Many Developers? + +One handful works on the core of the system in their free time, and another +handful helps with [[Debian GNU/Hurd|hurd/running/debian]] and +[[hurd/running/Arch_Hurd]] packaging. Also, an additional handful of former +developers are still available for answering technical questions, but are not +participating in the current development anymore. + +In the past (that is, a lot of years ago), the FSF did pay a few developers for +working full time on the GNU Hurd. But that was for a limited amount of time +only, and evidently, it was too little for getting the system into a +competitive state. Nowadays, it's only unpaid (apart from some +[[bounties|tag/bounty]]) and free-time volunteers' work. + +In contrast to the Linux kernel, there is no industry involvement in +development. For one, this is a good thing: independency; no conflicts of +interests. For another, it is also a bad thing: no dedicated full-time +manpower -- which matters a lot. + + +# Why So Few? + +We can only speculate. One major problem might be that the [[architectural +benefits|advantages]] are generally perceived as very abstract, with little +practical benefit. We currently don't have many tools that are actually making +use of all the possibilities. + +Another reason is that it's been taking too long. Today, most people don't +believe it will ever be ready for production use, and thus would consider +involvement a waste of time. This latter point is invalid, of course, as +learning can never be a waste of time. The same holds for the [[challenges]] +raised by the GNU Hurd -- we can only learn and improve upon working on them. + +For likely the same reasons there is no industry interest in the GNU Hurd: its +advantages are too abstract and incomplete for being of interest there. + +As for the scientific sector, the GNU Hurd projects was rather about *using* a +[[microkernel]] intead of doing research on them, for example. But, there have +been some projects and theses done, and some scientific papers published on GNU +Hurd topics, and we're generally very interested in further such projects. + + +# Attracting New Faces + +We're an open project: any interested party (*you*!) are very welcome to start +[[contributing]]. Mentoring is possible, too, to help you get started. + +Likewise, for reaching out to new developers, we're participating in [[Google's +Summer of Code program|community/gsoc]]. diff --git a/faq/+how_many_developers/discussion.mdwn b/faq/+how_many_developers/discussion.mdwn new file mode 100644 index 00000000..8e4c487a --- /dev/null +++ b/faq/+how_many_developers/discussion.mdwn @@ -0,0 +1,65 @@ +[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2011, 2012 Free Software Foundation, Inc."]] + +[[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable +id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this +document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or +any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant +Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license +is included in the section entitled [[GNU Free Documentation +License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] + + +# IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2011-05-22 + + Since apparently Hurd's aim is a very stable and transparent + system ...why aren't there any companies backing it up? + silver_hook: it's not in a state yet where it would be + commercially interesting + silver_hook: and after some epic failures in the 90s, few + companies dare to invest in microkernel development... + Isn't MacOS X running on top of Mach? + yes, but it's not a true microkernel system + for one, it's single-server, which is boring + also it uses co-location, i.e. runs all the system code in the + kernel address space -- they are separated only formally + even NT is more of a microkernel system I think + Oh, OK, I'm not that knowledgeable about kernels to know + that. + well, now you know :-) + Yup, thanks :) + most people don't know this, so don't worry + I was just wondering that it might be potentially an ideal + server system, right? + well, *potentially* it might be an ideal general-purpose system, + which includes server use... though personally I think the advantages of + the architecture are more visible in desktop use, as servers tend to be + rather streamlined, with little need for individualisation :-) + however, it still remains to be proven that true (multi-server) + microkernel operating systems actually work for general-purpose + applications... + antrik: I mean regarding hosting or virtual servers. + so far, they are only successful in the much simpler embedded + space + well, yes, the Hurd architecture in theory allows very much + flexibility regarding virtual environments... I once blogged about + that. not sure whether server applications really require that + flexibility though. I think most people are pretty happy with the various + virtualisation/container solutions available in Linux. again, the + flexibility is more relevant in the desktop space IMHO + dosn't mean it wouldn't be useful for servers too... just not as + much of a selling point I fear :-) + + +# IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2011-07-09 + + gnu_srs1: regarding your question why people aren't interested in + workin on Hurd: Eric Raymond explains it pretty well in his famous + "Cathedral and Bazaar" paper + people are more likely to work on something that *almost* works + for them, and where they only have to fill in a few missing bits + the Hurd doesn't almost work for anyone + actually, you should probably reread the whole paper. it's + essentially an analysis why the Hurd failed compared to Linux + + +# [[open_issues/mission_statement]] diff --git a/faq/+release.mdwn b/faq/+release.mdwn new file mode 100644 index 00000000..878a476f --- /dev/null +++ b/faq/+release.mdwn @@ -0,0 +1,15 @@ +[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2008 Free Software Foundation, Inc."]] + +[[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable +id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this +document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or +any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant +Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license +is included in the section entitled +[[GNU Free Documentation License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] + +[[!meta title="When will the Hurd be released?"]] + +Next year. + +Save that, read about the Hurd's [[hurd/status]]. diff --git a/faq/+still_useful.mdwn b/faq/+still_useful.mdwn new file mode 100644 index 00000000..919eb9d4 --- /dev/null +++ b/faq/+still_useful.mdwn @@ -0,0 +1,49 @@ +[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2009 Free Software Foundation, Inc."]] + +[[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable +id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this +document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or +any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant +Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license +is included in the section entitled [[GNU Free Documentation +License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] + +[[!meta title="Why is the Hurd useful?"]] + +What are the advantages with the Hurd over Linux? (In general of course, nothing +in depth) + +> Flexibility for the user: +> +> transparent ftp +> +> $ cd /ftp://ftp.debian.org/debian +> $ ls +> +> personnal filesystem +> +> $ dd < /dev/zero > myspace.img bs=1M count=1024 +> $ mke2fs myspace.img +> $ settrans myspace /hurd/ext2fs myspace.img +> $ cd myspace + +>> Just curious, but I keep seeing these (and other similar) concepts being +>> brought up as the amazing selling points of the Hurd, but all of this is +>> entirely doable now in Linux with FUSE or things like it. + +>>> Nowadays, at LAST, yes, partly. +>>> And only on machines where fuse is enabled. Is it enabled on the servers you have an account on? + +>> I'm not sure if an ftp filesystem has been implemented for FUSE yet, but its +>> definately doable; and loopback filesystems like in your second example have +>> been supported for years. + +>>> As a normal user? And establish a tap interface connected through ppp over +>>> ssh or whatever you could want to imagine? + +>> What, then, are the major selling points or benefits? + +>>> These were just examples, Linux is trying to catch up in ugly ways indeed +>>> (yes, have a look at the details of fuse, it's deemed to be inefficient). +>>> In the Hurd, it's that way from the _ground_ and there is no limitation +>>> like having to be root or ask for root to add magic lines, etc. diff --git a/faq/+translator.mdwn b/faq/+translator.mdwn new file mode 100644 index 00000000..88b5130f --- /dev/null +++ b/faq/+translator.mdwn @@ -0,0 +1,3 @@ +[[!meta title="What is a translator?"]] + +A [good explanation](http://www.debian.org/ports/hurd/hurd-doc-translator) is available, translated (sic) in several languages. diff --git a/faq/asking.mdwn b/faq/asking.mdwn new file mode 100644 index 00000000..59ec8d08 --- /dev/null +++ b/faq/asking.mdwn @@ -0,0 +1,5 @@ +[[!meta title="Why can't I get the answers I need from Hurd hackers?"]] + +This [document](http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html) may help you +understand some developers attitudes and social norms. + diff --git a/faq/gnu.mdwn b/faq/gnu.mdwn new file mode 100644 index 00000000..e69f7d1d --- /dev/null +++ b/faq/gnu.mdwn @@ -0,0 +1,5 @@ +[[!meta title="You say GNU, don't you mean GNU/Hurd?"]] + +Yes and no. GNU refers to the system as a whole, while GNU/Hurd is more +specific, saying that it is the GNU system running on the Hurd -- to +differentiate it from the GNU system running on Linux, GNU/Linux. diff --git a/faq/how_many_developers.mdwn b/faq/how_many_developers.mdwn deleted file mode 100644 index a96e0576..00000000 --- a/faq/how_many_developers.mdwn +++ /dev/null @@ -1,63 +0,0 @@ -[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2010, 2011 Free Software Foundation, Inc."]] - -[[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable -id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this -document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or -any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant -Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license -is included in the section entitled [[GNU Free Documentation -License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] - -[[!meta title="How many developers are working on the GNU Hurd, and why so -few?"]] - - -# How Many Developers? - -One handful works on the core of the system in their free time, and another -handful helps with [[Debian GNU/Hurd|hurd/running/debian]] and -[[hurd/running/Arch_Hurd]] packaging. Also, an additional handful of former -developers are still available for answering technical questions, but are not -participating in the current development anymore. - -In the past (that is, a lot of years ago), the FSF did pay a few developers for -working full time on the GNU Hurd. But that was for a limited amount of time -only, and evidently, it was too little for getting the system into a -competitive state. Nowadays, it's only unpaid (apart from some -[[bounties|tag/bounty]]) and free-time volunteers' work. - -In contrast to the Linux kernel, there is no industry involvement in -development. For one, this is a good thing: independency; no conflicts of -interests. For another, it is also a bad thing: no dedicated full-time -manpower -- which matters a lot. - - -# Why So Few? - -We can only speculate. One major problem might be that the [[architectural -benefits|advantages]] are generally perceived as very abstract, with little -practical benefit. We currently don't have many tools that are actually making -use of all the possibilities. - -Another reason is that it's been taking too long. Today, most people don't -believe it will ever be ready for production use, and thus would consider -involvement a waste of time. This latter point is invalid, of course, as -learning can never be a waste of time. The same holds for the [[challenges]] -raised by the GNU Hurd -- we can only learn and improve upon working on them. - -For likely the same reasons there is no industry interest in the GNU Hurd: its -advantages are too abstract and incomplete for being of interest there. - -As for the scientific sector, the GNU Hurd projects was rather about *using* a -[[microkernel]] intead of doing research on them, for example. But, there have -been some projects and theses done, and some scientific papers published on GNU -Hurd topics, and we're generally very interested in further such projects. - - -# Attracting New Faces - -We're an open project: any interested party (*you*!) are very welcome to start -[[contributing]]. Mentoring is possible, too, to help you get started. - -Likewise, for reaching out to new developers, we're participating in [[Google's -Summer of Code program|community/gsoc]]. diff --git a/faq/how_many_developers/discussion.mdwn b/faq/how_many_developers/discussion.mdwn deleted file mode 100644 index 8e4c487a..00000000 --- a/faq/how_many_developers/discussion.mdwn +++ /dev/null @@ -1,65 +0,0 @@ -[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2011, 2012 Free Software Foundation, Inc."]] - -[[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable -id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this -document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or -any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant -Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license -is included in the section entitled [[GNU Free Documentation -License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] - - -# IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2011-05-22 - - Since apparently Hurd's aim is a very stable and transparent - system ...why aren't there any companies backing it up? - silver_hook: it's not in a state yet where it would be - commercially interesting - silver_hook: and after some epic failures in the 90s, few - companies dare to invest in microkernel development... - Isn't MacOS X running on top of Mach? - yes, but it's not a true microkernel system - for one, it's single-server, which is boring - also it uses co-location, i.e. runs all the system code in the - kernel address space -- they are separated only formally - even NT is more of a microkernel system I think - Oh, OK, I'm not that knowledgeable about kernels to know - that. - well, now you know :-) - Yup, thanks :) - most people don't know this, so don't worry - I was just wondering that it might be potentially an ideal - server system, right? - well, *potentially* it might be an ideal general-purpose system, - which includes server use... though personally I think the advantages of - the architecture are more visible in desktop use, as servers tend to be - rather streamlined, with little need for individualisation :-) - however, it still remains to be proven that true (multi-server) - microkernel operating systems actually work for general-purpose - applications... - antrik: I mean regarding hosting or virtual servers. - so far, they are only successful in the much simpler embedded - space - well, yes, the Hurd architecture in theory allows very much - flexibility regarding virtual environments... I once blogged about - that. not sure whether server applications really require that - flexibility though. I think most people are pretty happy with the various - virtualisation/container solutions available in Linux. again, the - flexibility is more relevant in the desktop space IMHO - dosn't mean it wouldn't be useful for servers too... just not as - much of a selling point I fear :-) - - -# IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2011-07-09 - - gnu_srs1: regarding your question why people aren't interested in - workin on Hurd: Eric Raymond explains it pretty well in his famous - "Cathedral and Bazaar" paper - people are more likely to work on something that *almost* works - for them, and where they only have to fill in a few missing bits - the Hurd doesn't almost work for anyone - actually, you should probably reread the whole paper. it's - essentially an analysis why the Hurd failed compared to Linux - - -# [[open_issues/mission_statement]] diff --git a/faq/old/old-stuff.mdwn b/faq/old/old-stuff.mdwn deleted file mode 100644 index f5be2814..00000000 --- a/faq/old/old-stuff.mdwn +++ /dev/null @@ -1,30 +0,0 @@ -In addition to the [general FAQ](http://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/docs.html#TOCfaq) there are the following typical newbie questions. (There is an [updated version](http://tuxou.ouvaton.org/hurd/) which is not official yet.) - -If you still have problems, do not hesitate to make use of the [[mailing lists]] or the [[IRC]]. - -* **_You say GNU, don't you mean GNU/Hurd?_** - * Yes and no. GNU refers to the system as a whole, while GNU/Hurd is more specific, saying that it is the GNU system running on the Hurd -- to differentiate it from the GNU system running on Linux, GNU/Linux. - -* **_Why can't I get the answers I need from Hurd hackers?_** - * This [document](http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html) may help you understand some developers attitudes and social norms. - -* **_Where are the virtual consoles I use when running Linux?_** - * The userland [[console]] provides it. You could still [use screen](http://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/faq.en.html#q4-6) of course. - -* **_What is a translator?_** - * The official FAQ [answers](http://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/faq.en.html#q4-2) this question by a reference to [hurd-doc-translator](http://www.debian.org/ports/hurd/hurd-doc-translator). - -* **_Where's the sauce?_** - * It's on [Savannah](http://savannah.gnu.org). See also the [GNU Development Resources](http://www.gnu.org/software/devel.html), for more information. - -* **_What is GNU Mach vs. oskit-mach?_** - * There used to be different versions of the Mach microkernel that supported the Hurd that runs on top of it. We currently only use GNU Mach. For more info, see [[Mach]] - -* **_What software is available for GNU?_** - * Most (3/4) packages from [Debian](http://www.debian.org/) [GNU/Linux](http://www.gnu.org/gnu/linux-and-gnu.html) which aren't linux-specific ([Packages That Won't Be Ported](http://www.debian.org/ports/hurd/hurd-devel-debian)) are expected to work on GNU/Hurd too. See the database in . Notably, [GNOME](http://www.gnome.org), and [KDE](http://www.kde.org) work. See the [[porting/guidelines]] document for some common build problems and their solutions. - * If you can't fetch a package with "apt-get install ", try building it from source: "apt-get source && cd <package\_dir> && debian/rules binary". - * As of March 2013, 78% of Debian packages have been ported on the Hurd. Of course, bug testing is welcome. - -* **_How do I initialize a serial console on the Hurd?_** - * You can try out the Serial Howto at - * For kernel messages, you can append `console=com0` to the kernel command line. diff --git a/faq/release.mdwn b/faq/release.mdwn deleted file mode 100644 index 878a476f..00000000 --- a/faq/release.mdwn +++ /dev/null @@ -1,15 +0,0 @@ -[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2008 Free Software Foundation, Inc."]] - -[[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable -id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this -document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or -any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant -Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license -is included in the section entitled -[[GNU Free Documentation License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] - -[[!meta title="When will the Hurd be released?"]] - -Next year. - -Save that, read about the Hurd's [[hurd/status]]. diff --git a/faq/running/df.mdwn b/faq/running/df.mdwn index 51de2b6c..0e25ad66 100644 --- a/faq/running/df.mdwn +++ b/faq/running/df.mdwn @@ -8,7 +8,7 @@ Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license is included in the section entitled [[GNU Free Documentation License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] -[[!meta title="Why doesn't df work?"]] +[[!meta title="Why df doesn't work?"]] There is no `/etc/mtab` (due to dynamic translator startup, its content is hard to define actually, see diff --git a/faq/running/hurd_console.mdwn b/faq/running/hurd_console.mdwn index cb2de2c0..f55e30d2 100644 --- a/faq/running/hurd_console.mdwn +++ b/faq/running/hurd_console.mdwn @@ -9,5 +9,7 @@ Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license is included in the section entitled [[GNU Free Documentation License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] +[[!meta title="How about the virtual console?"]] + Edit `/etc/default/hurd-console` to configure the Hurd console. See [[hurd/console]] for further information about the Hurd console. diff --git a/faq/running/serial_console.mdwn b/faq/running/serial_console.mdwn new file mode 100644 index 00000000..129ac7f3 --- /dev/null +++ b/faq/running/serial_console.mdwn @@ -0,0 +1,4 @@ +[[!meta title="How do I initialize a serial console on the Hurd?"]] + + * You can try out the Serial Howto at + * For kernel messages, you can append `console=com0` to the kernel command line. diff --git a/faq/sauce.mdwn b/faq/sauce.mdwn new file mode 100644 index 00000000..16f19f7c --- /dev/null +++ b/faq/sauce.mdwn @@ -0,0 +1,3 @@ +[[!meta title="Where's the sauce?"]] + +It's on [Savannah](http://savannah.gnu.org). See also the [GNU Development Resources](http://www.gnu.org/software/devel.html), for more information. diff --git a/faq/still_useful.mdwn b/faq/still_useful.mdwn deleted file mode 100644 index 919eb9d4..00000000 --- a/faq/still_useful.mdwn +++ /dev/null @@ -1,49 +0,0 @@ -[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2009 Free Software Foundation, Inc."]] - -[[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable -id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this -document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or -any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant -Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license -is included in the section entitled [[GNU Free Documentation -License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] - -[[!meta title="Why is the Hurd useful?"]] - -What are the advantages with the Hurd over Linux? (In general of course, nothing -in depth) - -> Flexibility for the user: -> -> transparent ftp -> -> $ cd /ftp://ftp.debian.org/debian -> $ ls -> -> personnal filesystem -> -> $ dd < /dev/zero > myspace.img bs=1M count=1024 -> $ mke2fs myspace.img -> $ settrans myspace /hurd/ext2fs myspace.img -> $ cd myspace - ->> Just curious, but I keep seeing these (and other similar) concepts being ->> brought up as the amazing selling points of the Hurd, but all of this is ->> entirely doable now in Linux with FUSE or things like it. - ->>> Nowadays, at LAST, yes, partly. ->>> And only on machines where fuse is enabled. Is it enabled on the servers you have an account on? - ->> I'm not sure if an ftp filesystem has been implemented for FUSE yet, but its ->> definately doable; and loopback filesystems like in your second example have ->> been supported for years. - ->>> As a normal user? And establish a tap interface connected through ppp over ->>> ssh or whatever you could want to imagine? - ->> What, then, are the major selling points or benefits? - ->>> These were just examples, Linux is trying to catch up in ugly ways indeed ->>> (yes, have a look at the details of fuse, it's deemed to be inefficient). ->>> In the Hurd, it's that way from the _ground_ and there is no limitation ->>> like having to be root or ask for root to add magic lines, etc. diff --git a/faq/support/+drivers.mdwn b/faq/support/+drivers.mdwn new file mode 100644 index 00000000..974fb612 --- /dev/null +++ b/faq/support/+drivers.mdwn @@ -0,0 +1,18 @@ +[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2009, 2013 Free Software Foundation, Inc."]] + +[[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable +id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this +document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or +any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant +Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license +is included in the section entitled [[GNU Free Documentation +License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] + +[[!meta title="What drivers does GNU/Hurd have?"]] + +Currently, for disks Mach integrates drivers from Linux 2.0 through some +[[community/gsoc/project_ideas/driver_glue_code]]. As it's very old, that +limits hardware support a lot, of course. For network boards, we use the +[[DDE]] toolkit to run linux 2.6.32 drivers in userland processes, +which provides both long-term support for new hardware and safety against driver +bugs. diff --git a/faq/support/+software.mdwn b/faq/support/+software.mdwn new file mode 100644 index 00000000..4726147c --- /dev/null +++ b/faq/support/+software.mdwn @@ -0,0 +1,5 @@ +[[!meta title="What software is available for GNU?"]] + + * Most (3/4) packages from [Debian](http://www.debian.org/) [GNU/Linux](http://www.gnu.org/gnu/linux-and-gnu.html) which aren't linux-specific ([Packages That Won't Be Ported](http://www.debian.org/ports/hurd/hurd-devel-debian)) are expected to work on GNU/Hurd too. See the database in . Notably, [GNOME](http://www.gnome.org), and [KDE](http://www.kde.org) work. See the [[porting/guidelines]] document for some common build problems and their solutions. + * If you can't fetch a package with "apt-get install ", try building it from source: "apt-get source && cd <package\_dir> && debian/rules binary". + * As of March 2013, 78% of Debian packages have been ported on the Hurd. Of course, bug testing is welcome. diff --git a/faq/support/how_about_drivers.mdwn b/faq/support/how_about_drivers.mdwn deleted file mode 100644 index 974fb612..00000000 --- a/faq/support/how_about_drivers.mdwn +++ /dev/null @@ -1,18 +0,0 @@ -[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2009, 2013 Free Software Foundation, Inc."]] - -[[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable -id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this -document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or -any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant -Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license -is included in the section entitled [[GNU Free Documentation -License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] - -[[!meta title="What drivers does GNU/Hurd have?"]] - -Currently, for disks Mach integrates drivers from Linux 2.0 through some -[[community/gsoc/project_ideas/driver_glue_code]]. As it's very old, that -limits hardware support a lot, of course. For network boards, we use the -[[DDE]] toolkit to run linux 2.6.32 drivers in userland processes, -which provides both long-term support for new hardware and safety against driver -bugs. diff --git a/faq/which_microkernel.mdwn b/faq/which_microkernel.mdwn index 84b661e4..3ceb315c 100644 --- a/faq/which_microkernel.mdwn +++ b/faq/which_microkernel.mdwn @@ -8,7 +8,7 @@ Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license is included in the section entitled [[GNU Free Documentation License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] -[[!meta title="What happened with the Hurd ports to the L4 / Coyotos / Viengoos +[[!meta title="What happened with the Hurd ports to the OSKit Mach / L4 / Coyotos / Viengoos microkernels?"]] -- cgit v1.2.3 From da9a27f53542af3b0c32a5eea36e348a36e3fe0f Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 From: Samuel Thibault Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 13:50:37 +0100 Subject: + prefix is not a good idea, as it means something to vi --- faq/+how_many_developers.mdwn | 63 ------------------------------- faq/+how_many_developers/discussion.mdwn | 65 -------------------------------- faq/+release.mdwn | 15 -------- faq/+still_useful.mdwn | 57 ---------------------------- faq/+translator.mdwn | 3 -- faq/,how_many_developers.mdwn | 63 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ faq/,how_many_developers/discussion.mdwn | 65 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ faq/,release.mdwn | 15 ++++++++ faq/,still_useful.mdwn | 57 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ faq/,translator.mdwn | 3 ++ faq/support/+drivers.mdwn | 18 --------- faq/support/+software.mdwn | 5 --- faq/support/,drivers.mdwn | 18 +++++++++ faq/support/,software.mdwn | 5 +++ 14 files changed, 226 insertions(+), 226 deletions(-) delete mode 100644 faq/+how_many_developers.mdwn delete mode 100644 faq/+how_many_developers/discussion.mdwn delete mode 100644 faq/+release.mdwn delete mode 100644 faq/+still_useful.mdwn delete mode 100644 faq/+translator.mdwn create mode 100644 faq/,how_many_developers.mdwn create mode 100644 faq/,how_many_developers/discussion.mdwn create mode 100644 faq/,release.mdwn create mode 100644 faq/,still_useful.mdwn create mode 100644 faq/,translator.mdwn delete mode 100644 faq/support/+drivers.mdwn delete mode 100644 faq/support/+software.mdwn create mode 100644 faq/support/,drivers.mdwn create mode 100644 faq/support/,software.mdwn (limited to 'faq/support') diff --git a/faq/+how_many_developers.mdwn b/faq/+how_many_developers.mdwn deleted file mode 100644 index a96e0576..00000000 --- a/faq/+how_many_developers.mdwn +++ /dev/null @@ -1,63 +0,0 @@ -[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2010, 2011 Free Software Foundation, Inc."]] - -[[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable -id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this -document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or -any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant -Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license -is included in the section entitled [[GNU Free Documentation -License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] - -[[!meta title="How many developers are working on the GNU Hurd, and why so -few?"]] - - -# How Many Developers? - -One handful works on the core of the system in their free time, and another -handful helps with [[Debian GNU/Hurd|hurd/running/debian]] and -[[hurd/running/Arch_Hurd]] packaging. Also, an additional handful of former -developers are still available for answering technical questions, but are not -participating in the current development anymore. - -In the past (that is, a lot of years ago), the FSF did pay a few developers for -working full time on the GNU Hurd. But that was for a limited amount of time -only, and evidently, it was too little for getting the system into a -competitive state. Nowadays, it's only unpaid (apart from some -[[bounties|tag/bounty]]) and free-time volunteers' work. - -In contrast to the Linux kernel, there is no industry involvement in -development. For one, this is a good thing: independency; no conflicts of -interests. For another, it is also a bad thing: no dedicated full-time -manpower -- which matters a lot. - - -# Why So Few? - -We can only speculate. One major problem might be that the [[architectural -benefits|advantages]] are generally perceived as very abstract, with little -practical benefit. We currently don't have many tools that are actually making -use of all the possibilities. - -Another reason is that it's been taking too long. Today, most people don't -believe it will ever be ready for production use, and thus would consider -involvement a waste of time. This latter point is invalid, of course, as -learning can never be a waste of time. The same holds for the [[challenges]] -raised by the GNU Hurd -- we can only learn and improve upon working on them. - -For likely the same reasons there is no industry interest in the GNU Hurd: its -advantages are too abstract and incomplete for being of interest there. - -As for the scientific sector, the GNU Hurd projects was rather about *using* a -[[microkernel]] intead of doing research on them, for example. But, there have -been some projects and theses done, and some scientific papers published on GNU -Hurd topics, and we're generally very interested in further such projects. - - -# Attracting New Faces - -We're an open project: any interested party (*you*!) are very welcome to start -[[contributing]]. Mentoring is possible, too, to help you get started. - -Likewise, for reaching out to new developers, we're participating in [[Google's -Summer of Code program|community/gsoc]]. diff --git a/faq/+how_many_developers/discussion.mdwn b/faq/+how_many_developers/discussion.mdwn deleted file mode 100644 index 8e4c487a..00000000 --- a/faq/+how_many_developers/discussion.mdwn +++ /dev/null @@ -1,65 +0,0 @@ -[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2011, 2012 Free Software Foundation, Inc."]] - -[[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable -id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this -document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or -any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant -Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license -is included in the section entitled [[GNU Free Documentation -License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] - - -# IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2011-05-22 - - Since apparently Hurd's aim is a very stable and transparent - system ...why aren't there any companies backing it up? - silver_hook: it's not in a state yet where it would be - commercially interesting - silver_hook: and after some epic failures in the 90s, few - companies dare to invest in microkernel development... - Isn't MacOS X running on top of Mach? - yes, but it's not a true microkernel system - for one, it's single-server, which is boring - also it uses co-location, i.e. runs all the system code in the - kernel address space -- they are separated only formally - even NT is more of a microkernel system I think - Oh, OK, I'm not that knowledgeable about kernels to know - that. - well, now you know :-) - Yup, thanks :) - most people don't know this, so don't worry - I was just wondering that it might be potentially an ideal - server system, right? - well, *potentially* it might be an ideal general-purpose system, - which includes server use... though personally I think the advantages of - the architecture are more visible in desktop use, as servers tend to be - rather streamlined, with little need for individualisation :-) - however, it still remains to be proven that true (multi-server) - microkernel operating systems actually work for general-purpose - applications... - antrik: I mean regarding hosting or virtual servers. - so far, they are only successful in the much simpler embedded - space - well, yes, the Hurd architecture in theory allows very much - flexibility regarding virtual environments... I once blogged about - that. not sure whether server applications really require that - flexibility though. I think most people are pretty happy with the various - virtualisation/container solutions available in Linux. again, the - flexibility is more relevant in the desktop space IMHO - dosn't mean it wouldn't be useful for servers too... just not as - much of a selling point I fear :-) - - -# IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2011-07-09 - - gnu_srs1: regarding your question why people aren't interested in - workin on Hurd: Eric Raymond explains it pretty well in his famous - "Cathedral and Bazaar" paper - people are more likely to work on something that *almost* works - for them, and where they only have to fill in a few missing bits - the Hurd doesn't almost work for anyone - actually, you should probably reread the whole paper. it's - essentially an analysis why the Hurd failed compared to Linux - - -# [[open_issues/mission_statement]] diff --git a/faq/+release.mdwn b/faq/+release.mdwn deleted file mode 100644 index 878a476f..00000000 --- a/faq/+release.mdwn +++ /dev/null @@ -1,15 +0,0 @@ -[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2008 Free Software Foundation, Inc."]] - -[[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable -id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this -document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or -any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant -Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license -is included in the section entitled -[[GNU Free Documentation License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] - -[[!meta title="When will the Hurd be released?"]] - -Next year. - -Save that, read about the Hurd's [[hurd/status]]. diff --git a/faq/+still_useful.mdwn b/faq/+still_useful.mdwn deleted file mode 100644 index d98f98ed..00000000 --- a/faq/+still_useful.mdwn +++ /dev/null @@ -1,57 +0,0 @@ -[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2009 Free Software Foundation, Inc."]] - -[[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable -id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this -document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or -any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant -Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license -is included in the section entitled [[GNU Free Documentation -License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] - -[[!meta title="Why is the Hurd useful?"]] - -What are the advantages with the Hurd over Linux? (In general of course, nothing -in depth) - -> Notably, flexibility for the user: -> -> transparent ftp -> -> $ cd /ftp://ftp.debian.org/debian -> $ ls -> -> personnal filesystem -> -> $ dd < /dev/zero > myspace.img bs=1M count=1024 -> $ mke2fs myspace.img -> $ settrans myspace /hurd/ext2fs myspace.img -> $ cd myspace - ->> Just curious, but I keep seeing these (and other similar) concepts being ->> brought up as the amazing selling points of the Hurd, but all of this is ->> entirely doable now in Linux with FUSE or things like it. - ->>> Nowadays, at LAST, yes, partly. ->>> And only on machines where fuse is enabled. Is it enabled on the servers you have an account on? - ->> I'm not sure if an ftp filesystem has been implemented for FUSE yet, but its ->> definately doable; and loopback filesystems like in your second example have ->> been supported for years. - ->>> As a normal user? And establish a tap interface connected through ppp over ->>> ssh or whatever you could want to imagine? - ->> What, then, are the major selling points or benefits? - ->>> These were just examples, Linux is trying to catch up in ugly ways indeed ->>> (yes, have a look at the details of fuse, it's deemed to be inefficient). ->>> In the Hurd, it's that way from the _ground_ and there is no limitation ->>> like having to be root or ask for root to add magic lines, etc. - -> It also for instance provides userland drivers, for instance the network -> drivers are actually Linux drivers running in a separate userland process. - -> It also for instance provides very fine-grain virtualization support, such as -> VPN for only one process, etc. - -> etc. etc. The implications are really very diverse... diff --git a/faq/+translator.mdwn b/faq/+translator.mdwn deleted file mode 100644 index 88b5130f..00000000 --- a/faq/+translator.mdwn +++ /dev/null @@ -1,3 +0,0 @@ -[[!meta title="What is a translator?"]] - -A [good explanation](http://www.debian.org/ports/hurd/hurd-doc-translator) is available, translated (sic) in several languages. diff --git a/faq/,how_many_developers.mdwn b/faq/,how_many_developers.mdwn new file mode 100644 index 00000000..a96e0576 --- /dev/null +++ b/faq/,how_many_developers.mdwn @@ -0,0 +1,63 @@ +[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2010, 2011 Free Software Foundation, Inc."]] + +[[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable +id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this +document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or +any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant +Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license +is included in the section entitled [[GNU Free Documentation +License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] + +[[!meta title="How many developers are working on the GNU Hurd, and why so +few?"]] + + +# How Many Developers? + +One handful works on the core of the system in their free time, and another +handful helps with [[Debian GNU/Hurd|hurd/running/debian]] and +[[hurd/running/Arch_Hurd]] packaging. Also, an additional handful of former +developers are still available for answering technical questions, but are not +participating in the current development anymore. + +In the past (that is, a lot of years ago), the FSF did pay a few developers for +working full time on the GNU Hurd. But that was for a limited amount of time +only, and evidently, it was too little for getting the system into a +competitive state. Nowadays, it's only unpaid (apart from some +[[bounties|tag/bounty]]) and free-time volunteers' work. + +In contrast to the Linux kernel, there is no industry involvement in +development. For one, this is a good thing: independency; no conflicts of +interests. For another, it is also a bad thing: no dedicated full-time +manpower -- which matters a lot. + + +# Why So Few? + +We can only speculate. One major problem might be that the [[architectural +benefits|advantages]] are generally perceived as very abstract, with little +practical benefit. We currently don't have many tools that are actually making +use of all the possibilities. + +Another reason is that it's been taking too long. Today, most people don't +believe it will ever be ready for production use, and thus would consider +involvement a waste of time. This latter point is invalid, of course, as +learning can never be a waste of time. The same holds for the [[challenges]] +raised by the GNU Hurd -- we can only learn and improve upon working on them. + +For likely the same reasons there is no industry interest in the GNU Hurd: its +advantages are too abstract and incomplete for being of interest there. + +As for the scientific sector, the GNU Hurd projects was rather about *using* a +[[microkernel]] intead of doing research on them, for example. But, there have +been some projects and theses done, and some scientific papers published on GNU +Hurd topics, and we're generally very interested in further such projects. + + +# Attracting New Faces + +We're an open project: any interested party (*you*!) are very welcome to start +[[contributing]]. Mentoring is possible, too, to help you get started. + +Likewise, for reaching out to new developers, we're participating in [[Google's +Summer of Code program|community/gsoc]]. diff --git a/faq/,how_many_developers/discussion.mdwn b/faq/,how_many_developers/discussion.mdwn new file mode 100644 index 00000000..8e4c487a --- /dev/null +++ b/faq/,how_many_developers/discussion.mdwn @@ -0,0 +1,65 @@ +[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2011, 2012 Free Software Foundation, Inc."]] + +[[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable +id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this +document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or +any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant +Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license +is included in the section entitled [[GNU Free Documentation +License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] + + +# IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2011-05-22 + + Since apparently Hurd's aim is a very stable and transparent + system ...why aren't there any companies backing it up? + silver_hook: it's not in a state yet where it would be + commercially interesting + silver_hook: and after some epic failures in the 90s, few + companies dare to invest in microkernel development... + Isn't MacOS X running on top of Mach? + yes, but it's not a true microkernel system + for one, it's single-server, which is boring + also it uses co-location, i.e. runs all the system code in the + kernel address space -- they are separated only formally + even NT is more of a microkernel system I think + Oh, OK, I'm not that knowledgeable about kernels to know + that. + well, now you know :-) + Yup, thanks :) + most people don't know this, so don't worry + I was just wondering that it might be potentially an ideal + server system, right? + well, *potentially* it might be an ideal general-purpose system, + which includes server use... though personally I think the advantages of + the architecture are more visible in desktop use, as servers tend to be + rather streamlined, with little need for individualisation :-) + however, it still remains to be proven that true (multi-server) + microkernel operating systems actually work for general-purpose + applications... + antrik: I mean regarding hosting or virtual servers. + so far, they are only successful in the much simpler embedded + space + well, yes, the Hurd architecture in theory allows very much + flexibility regarding virtual environments... I once blogged about + that. not sure whether server applications really require that + flexibility though. I think most people are pretty happy with the various + virtualisation/container solutions available in Linux. again, the + flexibility is more relevant in the desktop space IMHO + dosn't mean it wouldn't be useful for servers too... just not as + much of a selling point I fear :-) + + +# IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2011-07-09 + + gnu_srs1: regarding your question why people aren't interested in + workin on Hurd: Eric Raymond explains it pretty well in his famous + "Cathedral and Bazaar" paper + people are more likely to work on something that *almost* works + for them, and where they only have to fill in a few missing bits + the Hurd doesn't almost work for anyone + actually, you should probably reread the whole paper. it's + essentially an analysis why the Hurd failed compared to Linux + + +# [[open_issues/mission_statement]] diff --git a/faq/,release.mdwn b/faq/,release.mdwn new file mode 100644 index 00000000..878a476f --- /dev/null +++ b/faq/,release.mdwn @@ -0,0 +1,15 @@ +[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2008 Free Software Foundation, Inc."]] + +[[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable +id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this +document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or +any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant +Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license +is included in the section entitled +[[GNU Free Documentation License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] + +[[!meta title="When will the Hurd be released?"]] + +Next year. + +Save that, read about the Hurd's [[hurd/status]]. diff --git a/faq/,still_useful.mdwn b/faq/,still_useful.mdwn new file mode 100644 index 00000000..d98f98ed --- /dev/null +++ b/faq/,still_useful.mdwn @@ -0,0 +1,57 @@ +[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2009 Free Software Foundation, Inc."]] + +[[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable +id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this +document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or +any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant +Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license +is included in the section entitled [[GNU Free Documentation +License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] + +[[!meta title="Why is the Hurd useful?"]] + +What are the advantages with the Hurd over Linux? (In general of course, nothing +in depth) + +> Notably, flexibility for the user: +> +> transparent ftp +> +> $ cd /ftp://ftp.debian.org/debian +> $ ls +> +> personnal filesystem +> +> $ dd < /dev/zero > myspace.img bs=1M count=1024 +> $ mke2fs myspace.img +> $ settrans myspace /hurd/ext2fs myspace.img +> $ cd myspace + +>> Just curious, but I keep seeing these (and other similar) concepts being +>> brought up as the amazing selling points of the Hurd, but all of this is +>> entirely doable now in Linux with FUSE or things like it. + +>>> Nowadays, at LAST, yes, partly. +>>> And only on machines where fuse is enabled. Is it enabled on the servers you have an account on? + +>> I'm not sure if an ftp filesystem has been implemented for FUSE yet, but its +>> definately doable; and loopback filesystems like in your second example have +>> been supported for years. + +>>> As a normal user? And establish a tap interface connected through ppp over +>>> ssh or whatever you could want to imagine? + +>> What, then, are the major selling points or benefits? + +>>> These were just examples, Linux is trying to catch up in ugly ways indeed +>>> (yes, have a look at the details of fuse, it's deemed to be inefficient). +>>> In the Hurd, it's that way from the _ground_ and there is no limitation +>>> like having to be root or ask for root to add magic lines, etc. + +> It also for instance provides userland drivers, for instance the network +> drivers are actually Linux drivers running in a separate userland process. + +> It also for instance provides very fine-grain virtualization support, such as +> VPN for only one process, etc. + +> etc. etc. The implications are really very diverse... diff --git a/faq/,translator.mdwn b/faq/,translator.mdwn new file mode 100644 index 00000000..88b5130f --- /dev/null +++ b/faq/,translator.mdwn @@ -0,0 +1,3 @@ +[[!meta title="What is a translator?"]] + +A [good explanation](http://www.debian.org/ports/hurd/hurd-doc-translator) is available, translated (sic) in several languages. diff --git a/faq/support/+drivers.mdwn b/faq/support/+drivers.mdwn deleted file mode 100644 index 974fb612..00000000 --- a/faq/support/+drivers.mdwn +++ /dev/null @@ -1,18 +0,0 @@ -[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2009, 2013 Free Software Foundation, Inc."]] - -[[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable -id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this -document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or -any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant -Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license -is included in the section entitled [[GNU Free Documentation -License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] - -[[!meta title="What drivers does GNU/Hurd have?"]] - -Currently, for disks Mach integrates drivers from Linux 2.0 through some -[[community/gsoc/project_ideas/driver_glue_code]]. As it's very old, that -limits hardware support a lot, of course. For network boards, we use the -[[DDE]] toolkit to run linux 2.6.32 drivers in userland processes, -which provides both long-term support for new hardware and safety against driver -bugs. diff --git a/faq/support/+software.mdwn b/faq/support/+software.mdwn deleted file mode 100644 index 4726147c..00000000 --- a/faq/support/+software.mdwn +++ /dev/null @@ -1,5 +0,0 @@ -[[!meta title="What software is available for GNU?"]] - - * Most (3/4) packages from [Debian](http://www.debian.org/) [GNU/Linux](http://www.gnu.org/gnu/linux-and-gnu.html) which aren't linux-specific ([Packages That Won't Be Ported](http://www.debian.org/ports/hurd/hurd-devel-debian)) are expected to work on GNU/Hurd too. See the database in . Notably, [GNOME](http://www.gnome.org), and [KDE](http://www.kde.org) work. See the [[porting/guidelines]] document for some common build problems and their solutions. - * If you can't fetch a package with "apt-get install ", try building it from source: "apt-get source && cd <package\_dir> && debian/rules binary". - * As of March 2013, 78% of Debian packages have been ported on the Hurd. Of course, bug testing is welcome. diff --git a/faq/support/,drivers.mdwn b/faq/support/,drivers.mdwn new file mode 100644 index 00000000..974fb612 --- /dev/null +++ b/faq/support/,drivers.mdwn @@ -0,0 +1,18 @@ +[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2009, 2013 Free Software Foundation, Inc."]] + +[[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable +id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this +document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or +any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant +Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license +is included in the section entitled [[GNU Free Documentation +License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] + +[[!meta title="What drivers does GNU/Hurd have?"]] + +Currently, for disks Mach integrates drivers from Linux 2.0 through some +[[community/gsoc/project_ideas/driver_glue_code]]. As it's very old, that +limits hardware support a lot, of course. For network boards, we use the +[[DDE]] toolkit to run linux 2.6.32 drivers in userland processes, +which provides both long-term support for new hardware and safety against driver +bugs. diff --git a/faq/support/,software.mdwn b/faq/support/,software.mdwn new file mode 100644 index 00000000..4726147c --- /dev/null +++ b/faq/support/,software.mdwn @@ -0,0 +1,5 @@ +[[!meta title="What software is available for GNU?"]] + + * Most (3/4) packages from [Debian](http://www.debian.org/) [GNU/Linux](http://www.gnu.org/gnu/linux-and-gnu.html) which aren't linux-specific ([Packages That Won't Be Ported](http://www.debian.org/ports/hurd/hurd-devel-debian)) are expected to work on GNU/Hurd too. See the database in . Notably, [GNOME](http://www.gnome.org), and [KDE](http://www.kde.org) work. See the [[porting/guidelines]] document for some common build problems and their solutions. + * If you can't fetch a package with "apt-get install ", try building it from source: "apt-get source && cd <package\_dir> && debian/rules binary". + * As of March 2013, 78% of Debian packages have been ported on the Hurd. Of course, bug testing is welcome. -- cgit v1.2.3 From 1dfd4e282f8fc61f1b8047d0e333d61091691e4c Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 From: Samuel Thibault Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 13:58:06 +0100 Subject: , does not actually work either. 0- should, really --- faq/,how_many_developers.mdwn | 63 ------------------------------ faq/,how_many_developers/discussion.mdwn | 65 ------------------------------- faq/,release.mdwn | 15 ------- faq/,still_useful.mdwn | 57 --------------------------- faq/,translator.mdwn | 3 -- faq/0-how_many_developers.mdwn | 63 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ faq/0-how_many_developers/discussion.mdwn | 65 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ faq/0-release.mdwn | 15 +++++++ faq/0-still_useful.mdwn | 57 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ faq/0-translator.mdwn | 3 ++ faq/support/,drivers.mdwn | 18 --------- faq/support/,software.mdwn | 5 --- faq/support/0-drivers.mdwn | 18 +++++++++ faq/support/0-software.mdwn | 5 +++ 14 files changed, 226 insertions(+), 226 deletions(-) delete mode 100644 faq/,how_many_developers.mdwn delete mode 100644 faq/,how_many_developers/discussion.mdwn delete mode 100644 faq/,release.mdwn delete mode 100644 faq/,still_useful.mdwn delete mode 100644 faq/,translator.mdwn create mode 100644 faq/0-how_many_developers.mdwn create mode 100644 faq/0-how_many_developers/discussion.mdwn create mode 100644 faq/0-release.mdwn create mode 100644 faq/0-still_useful.mdwn create mode 100644 faq/0-translator.mdwn delete mode 100644 faq/support/,drivers.mdwn delete mode 100644 faq/support/,software.mdwn create mode 100644 faq/support/0-drivers.mdwn create mode 100644 faq/support/0-software.mdwn (limited to 'faq/support') diff --git a/faq/,how_many_developers.mdwn b/faq/,how_many_developers.mdwn deleted file mode 100644 index a96e0576..00000000 --- a/faq/,how_many_developers.mdwn +++ /dev/null @@ -1,63 +0,0 @@ -[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2010, 2011 Free Software Foundation, Inc."]] - -[[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable -id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this -document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or -any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant -Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license -is included in the section entitled [[GNU Free Documentation -License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] - -[[!meta title="How many developers are working on the GNU Hurd, and why so -few?"]] - - -# How Many Developers? - -One handful works on the core of the system in their free time, and another -handful helps with [[Debian GNU/Hurd|hurd/running/debian]] and -[[hurd/running/Arch_Hurd]] packaging. Also, an additional handful of former -developers are still available for answering technical questions, but are not -participating in the current development anymore. - -In the past (that is, a lot of years ago), the FSF did pay a few developers for -working full time on the GNU Hurd. But that was for a limited amount of time -only, and evidently, it was too little for getting the system into a -competitive state. Nowadays, it's only unpaid (apart from some -[[bounties|tag/bounty]]) and free-time volunteers' work. - -In contrast to the Linux kernel, there is no industry involvement in -development. For one, this is a good thing: independency; no conflicts of -interests. For another, it is also a bad thing: no dedicated full-time -manpower -- which matters a lot. - - -# Why So Few? - -We can only speculate. One major problem might be that the [[architectural -benefits|advantages]] are generally perceived as very abstract, with little -practical benefit. We currently don't have many tools that are actually making -use of all the possibilities. - -Another reason is that it's been taking too long. Today, most people don't -believe it will ever be ready for production use, and thus would consider -involvement a waste of time. This latter point is invalid, of course, as -learning can never be a waste of time. The same holds for the [[challenges]] -raised by the GNU Hurd -- we can only learn and improve upon working on them. - -For likely the same reasons there is no industry interest in the GNU Hurd: its -advantages are too abstract and incomplete for being of interest there. - -As for the scientific sector, the GNU Hurd projects was rather about *using* a -[[microkernel]] intead of doing research on them, for example. But, there have -been some projects and theses done, and some scientific papers published on GNU -Hurd topics, and we're generally very interested in further such projects. - - -# Attracting New Faces - -We're an open project: any interested party (*you*!) are very welcome to start -[[contributing]]. Mentoring is possible, too, to help you get started. - -Likewise, for reaching out to new developers, we're participating in [[Google's -Summer of Code program|community/gsoc]]. diff --git a/faq/,how_many_developers/discussion.mdwn b/faq/,how_many_developers/discussion.mdwn deleted file mode 100644 index 8e4c487a..00000000 --- a/faq/,how_many_developers/discussion.mdwn +++ /dev/null @@ -1,65 +0,0 @@ -[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2011, 2012 Free Software Foundation, Inc."]] - -[[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable -id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this -document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or -any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant -Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license -is included in the section entitled [[GNU Free Documentation -License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] - - -# IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2011-05-22 - - Since apparently Hurd's aim is a very stable and transparent - system ...why aren't there any companies backing it up? - silver_hook: it's not in a state yet where it would be - commercially interesting - silver_hook: and after some epic failures in the 90s, few - companies dare to invest in microkernel development... - Isn't MacOS X running on top of Mach? - yes, but it's not a true microkernel system - for one, it's single-server, which is boring - also it uses co-location, i.e. runs all the system code in the - kernel address space -- they are separated only formally - even NT is more of a microkernel system I think - Oh, OK, I'm not that knowledgeable about kernels to know - that. - well, now you know :-) - Yup, thanks :) - most people don't know this, so don't worry - I was just wondering that it might be potentially an ideal - server system, right? - well, *potentially* it might be an ideal general-purpose system, - which includes server use... though personally I think the advantages of - the architecture are more visible in desktop use, as servers tend to be - rather streamlined, with little need for individualisation :-) - however, it still remains to be proven that true (multi-server) - microkernel operating systems actually work for general-purpose - applications... - antrik: I mean regarding hosting or virtual servers. - so far, they are only successful in the much simpler embedded - space - well, yes, the Hurd architecture in theory allows very much - flexibility regarding virtual environments... I once blogged about - that. not sure whether server applications really require that - flexibility though. I think most people are pretty happy with the various - virtualisation/container solutions available in Linux. again, the - flexibility is more relevant in the desktop space IMHO - dosn't mean it wouldn't be useful for servers too... just not as - much of a selling point I fear :-) - - -# IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2011-07-09 - - gnu_srs1: regarding your question why people aren't interested in - workin on Hurd: Eric Raymond explains it pretty well in his famous - "Cathedral and Bazaar" paper - people are more likely to work on something that *almost* works - for them, and where they only have to fill in a few missing bits - the Hurd doesn't almost work for anyone - actually, you should probably reread the whole paper. it's - essentially an analysis why the Hurd failed compared to Linux - - -# [[open_issues/mission_statement]] diff --git a/faq/,release.mdwn b/faq/,release.mdwn deleted file mode 100644 index 878a476f..00000000 --- a/faq/,release.mdwn +++ /dev/null @@ -1,15 +0,0 @@ -[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2008 Free Software Foundation, Inc."]] - -[[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable -id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this -document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or -any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant -Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license -is included in the section entitled -[[GNU Free Documentation License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] - -[[!meta title="When will the Hurd be released?"]] - -Next year. - -Save that, read about the Hurd's [[hurd/status]]. diff --git a/faq/,still_useful.mdwn b/faq/,still_useful.mdwn deleted file mode 100644 index d98f98ed..00000000 --- a/faq/,still_useful.mdwn +++ /dev/null @@ -1,57 +0,0 @@ -[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2009 Free Software Foundation, Inc."]] - -[[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable -id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this -document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or -any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant -Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license -is included in the section entitled [[GNU Free Documentation -License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] - -[[!meta title="Why is the Hurd useful?"]] - -What are the advantages with the Hurd over Linux? (In general of course, nothing -in depth) - -> Notably, flexibility for the user: -> -> transparent ftp -> -> $ cd /ftp://ftp.debian.org/debian -> $ ls -> -> personnal filesystem -> -> $ dd < /dev/zero > myspace.img bs=1M count=1024 -> $ mke2fs myspace.img -> $ settrans myspace /hurd/ext2fs myspace.img -> $ cd myspace - ->> Just curious, but I keep seeing these (and other similar) concepts being ->> brought up as the amazing selling points of the Hurd, but all of this is ->> entirely doable now in Linux with FUSE or things like it. - ->>> Nowadays, at LAST, yes, partly. ->>> And only on machines where fuse is enabled. Is it enabled on the servers you have an account on? - ->> I'm not sure if an ftp filesystem has been implemented for FUSE yet, but its ->> definately doable; and loopback filesystems like in your second example have ->> been supported for years. - ->>> As a normal user? And establish a tap interface connected through ppp over ->>> ssh or whatever you could want to imagine? - ->> What, then, are the major selling points or benefits? - ->>> These were just examples, Linux is trying to catch up in ugly ways indeed ->>> (yes, have a look at the details of fuse, it's deemed to be inefficient). ->>> In the Hurd, it's that way from the _ground_ and there is no limitation ->>> like having to be root or ask for root to add magic lines, etc. - -> It also for instance provides userland drivers, for instance the network -> drivers are actually Linux drivers running in a separate userland process. - -> It also for instance provides very fine-grain virtualization support, such as -> VPN for only one process, etc. - -> etc. etc. The implications are really very diverse... diff --git a/faq/,translator.mdwn b/faq/,translator.mdwn deleted file mode 100644 index 88b5130f..00000000 --- a/faq/,translator.mdwn +++ /dev/null @@ -1,3 +0,0 @@ -[[!meta title="What is a translator?"]] - -A [good explanation](http://www.debian.org/ports/hurd/hurd-doc-translator) is available, translated (sic) in several languages. diff --git a/faq/0-how_many_developers.mdwn b/faq/0-how_many_developers.mdwn new file mode 100644 index 00000000..a96e0576 --- /dev/null +++ b/faq/0-how_many_developers.mdwn @@ -0,0 +1,63 @@ +[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2010, 2011 Free Software Foundation, Inc."]] + +[[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable +id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this +document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or +any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant +Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license +is included in the section entitled [[GNU Free Documentation +License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] + +[[!meta title="How many developers are working on the GNU Hurd, and why so +few?"]] + + +# How Many Developers? + +One handful works on the core of the system in their free time, and another +handful helps with [[Debian GNU/Hurd|hurd/running/debian]] and +[[hurd/running/Arch_Hurd]] packaging. Also, an additional handful of former +developers are still available for answering technical questions, but are not +participating in the current development anymore. + +In the past (that is, a lot of years ago), the FSF did pay a few developers for +working full time on the GNU Hurd. But that was for a limited amount of time +only, and evidently, it was too little for getting the system into a +competitive state. Nowadays, it's only unpaid (apart from some +[[bounties|tag/bounty]]) and free-time volunteers' work. + +In contrast to the Linux kernel, there is no industry involvement in +development. For one, this is a good thing: independency; no conflicts of +interests. For another, it is also a bad thing: no dedicated full-time +manpower -- which matters a lot. + + +# Why So Few? + +We can only speculate. One major problem might be that the [[architectural +benefits|advantages]] are generally perceived as very abstract, with little +practical benefit. We currently don't have many tools that are actually making +use of all the possibilities. + +Another reason is that it's been taking too long. Today, most people don't +believe it will ever be ready for production use, and thus would consider +involvement a waste of time. This latter point is invalid, of course, as +learning can never be a waste of time. The same holds for the [[challenges]] +raised by the GNU Hurd -- we can only learn and improve upon working on them. + +For likely the same reasons there is no industry interest in the GNU Hurd: its +advantages are too abstract and incomplete for being of interest there. + +As for the scientific sector, the GNU Hurd projects was rather about *using* a +[[microkernel]] intead of doing research on them, for example. But, there have +been some projects and theses done, and some scientific papers published on GNU +Hurd topics, and we're generally very interested in further such projects. + + +# Attracting New Faces + +We're an open project: any interested party (*you*!) are very welcome to start +[[contributing]]. Mentoring is possible, too, to help you get started. + +Likewise, for reaching out to new developers, we're participating in [[Google's +Summer of Code program|community/gsoc]]. diff --git a/faq/0-how_many_developers/discussion.mdwn b/faq/0-how_many_developers/discussion.mdwn new file mode 100644 index 00000000..8e4c487a --- /dev/null +++ b/faq/0-how_many_developers/discussion.mdwn @@ -0,0 +1,65 @@ +[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2011, 2012 Free Software Foundation, Inc."]] + +[[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable +id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this +document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or +any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant +Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license +is included in the section entitled [[GNU Free Documentation +License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] + + +# IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2011-05-22 + + Since apparently Hurd's aim is a very stable and transparent + system ...why aren't there any companies backing it up? + silver_hook: it's not in a state yet where it would be + commercially interesting + silver_hook: and after some epic failures in the 90s, few + companies dare to invest in microkernel development... + Isn't MacOS X running on top of Mach? + yes, but it's not a true microkernel system + for one, it's single-server, which is boring + also it uses co-location, i.e. runs all the system code in the + kernel address space -- they are separated only formally + even NT is more of a microkernel system I think + Oh, OK, I'm not that knowledgeable about kernels to know + that. + well, now you know :-) + Yup, thanks :) + most people don't know this, so don't worry + I was just wondering that it might be potentially an ideal + server system, right? + well, *potentially* it might be an ideal general-purpose system, + which includes server use... though personally I think the advantages of + the architecture are more visible in desktop use, as servers tend to be + rather streamlined, with little need for individualisation :-) + however, it still remains to be proven that true (multi-server) + microkernel operating systems actually work for general-purpose + applications... + antrik: I mean regarding hosting or virtual servers. + so far, they are only successful in the much simpler embedded + space + well, yes, the Hurd architecture in theory allows very much + flexibility regarding virtual environments... I once blogged about + that. not sure whether server applications really require that + flexibility though. I think most people are pretty happy with the various + virtualisation/container solutions available in Linux. again, the + flexibility is more relevant in the desktop space IMHO + dosn't mean it wouldn't be useful for servers too... just not as + much of a selling point I fear :-) + + +# IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2011-07-09 + + gnu_srs1: regarding your question why people aren't interested in + workin on Hurd: Eric Raymond explains it pretty well in his famous + "Cathedral and Bazaar" paper + people are more likely to work on something that *almost* works + for them, and where they only have to fill in a few missing bits + the Hurd doesn't almost work for anyone + actually, you should probably reread the whole paper. it's + essentially an analysis why the Hurd failed compared to Linux + + +# [[open_issues/mission_statement]] diff --git a/faq/0-release.mdwn b/faq/0-release.mdwn new file mode 100644 index 00000000..878a476f --- /dev/null +++ b/faq/0-release.mdwn @@ -0,0 +1,15 @@ +[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2008 Free Software Foundation, Inc."]] + +[[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable +id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this +document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or +any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant +Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license +is included in the section entitled +[[GNU Free Documentation License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] + +[[!meta title="When will the Hurd be released?"]] + +Next year. + +Save that, read about the Hurd's [[hurd/status]]. diff --git a/faq/0-still_useful.mdwn b/faq/0-still_useful.mdwn new file mode 100644 index 00000000..d98f98ed --- /dev/null +++ b/faq/0-still_useful.mdwn @@ -0,0 +1,57 @@ +[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2009 Free Software Foundation, Inc."]] + +[[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable +id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this +document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or +any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant +Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license +is included in the section entitled [[GNU Free Documentation +License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] + +[[!meta title="Why is the Hurd useful?"]] + +What are the advantages with the Hurd over Linux? (In general of course, nothing +in depth) + +> Notably, flexibility for the user: +> +> transparent ftp +> +> $ cd /ftp://ftp.debian.org/debian +> $ ls +> +> personnal filesystem +> +> $ dd < /dev/zero > myspace.img bs=1M count=1024 +> $ mke2fs myspace.img +> $ settrans myspace /hurd/ext2fs myspace.img +> $ cd myspace + +>> Just curious, but I keep seeing these (and other similar) concepts being +>> brought up as the amazing selling points of the Hurd, but all of this is +>> entirely doable now in Linux with FUSE or things like it. + +>>> Nowadays, at LAST, yes, partly. +>>> And only on machines where fuse is enabled. Is it enabled on the servers you have an account on? + +>> I'm not sure if an ftp filesystem has been implemented for FUSE yet, but its +>> definately doable; and loopback filesystems like in your second example have +>> been supported for years. + +>>> As a normal user? And establish a tap interface connected through ppp over +>>> ssh or whatever you could want to imagine? + +>> What, then, are the major selling points or benefits? + +>>> These were just examples, Linux is trying to catch up in ugly ways indeed +>>> (yes, have a look at the details of fuse, it's deemed to be inefficient). +>>> In the Hurd, it's that way from the _ground_ and there is no limitation +>>> like having to be root or ask for root to add magic lines, etc. + +> It also for instance provides userland drivers, for instance the network +> drivers are actually Linux drivers running in a separate userland process. + +> It also for instance provides very fine-grain virtualization support, such as +> VPN for only one process, etc. + +> etc. etc. The implications are really very diverse... diff --git a/faq/0-translator.mdwn b/faq/0-translator.mdwn new file mode 100644 index 00000000..88b5130f --- /dev/null +++ b/faq/0-translator.mdwn @@ -0,0 +1,3 @@ +[[!meta title="What is a translator?"]] + +A [good explanation](http://www.debian.org/ports/hurd/hurd-doc-translator) is available, translated (sic) in several languages. diff --git a/faq/support/,drivers.mdwn b/faq/support/,drivers.mdwn deleted file mode 100644 index 974fb612..00000000 --- a/faq/support/,drivers.mdwn +++ /dev/null @@ -1,18 +0,0 @@ -[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2009, 2013 Free Software Foundation, Inc."]] - -[[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable -id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this -document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or -any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant -Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license -is included in the section entitled [[GNU Free Documentation -License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] - -[[!meta title="What drivers does GNU/Hurd have?"]] - -Currently, for disks Mach integrates drivers from Linux 2.0 through some -[[community/gsoc/project_ideas/driver_glue_code]]. As it's very old, that -limits hardware support a lot, of course. For network boards, we use the -[[DDE]] toolkit to run linux 2.6.32 drivers in userland processes, -which provides both long-term support for new hardware and safety against driver -bugs. diff --git a/faq/support/,software.mdwn b/faq/support/,software.mdwn deleted file mode 100644 index 4726147c..00000000 --- a/faq/support/,software.mdwn +++ /dev/null @@ -1,5 +0,0 @@ -[[!meta title="What software is available for GNU?"]] - - * Most (3/4) packages from [Debian](http://www.debian.org/) [GNU/Linux](http://www.gnu.org/gnu/linux-and-gnu.html) which aren't linux-specific ([Packages That Won't Be Ported](http://www.debian.org/ports/hurd/hurd-devel-debian)) are expected to work on GNU/Hurd too. See the database in . Notably, [GNOME](http://www.gnome.org), and [KDE](http://www.kde.org) work. See the [[porting/guidelines]] document for some common build problems and their solutions. - * If you can't fetch a package with "apt-get install ", try building it from source: "apt-get source && cd <package\_dir> && debian/rules binary". - * As of March 2013, 78% of Debian packages have been ported on the Hurd. Of course, bug testing is welcome. diff --git a/faq/support/0-drivers.mdwn b/faq/support/0-drivers.mdwn new file mode 100644 index 00000000..974fb612 --- /dev/null +++ b/faq/support/0-drivers.mdwn @@ -0,0 +1,18 @@ +[[!meta copyright="Copyright © 2009, 2013 Free Software Foundation, Inc."]] + +[[!meta license="""[[!toggle id="license" text="GFDL 1.2+"]][[!toggleable +id="license" text="Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this +document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or +any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant +Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license +is included in the section entitled [[GNU Free Documentation +License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] + +[[!meta title="What drivers does GNU/Hurd have?"]] + +Currently, for disks Mach integrates drivers from Linux 2.0 through some +[[community/gsoc/project_ideas/driver_glue_code]]. As it's very old, that +limits hardware support a lot, of course. For network boards, we use the +[[DDE]] toolkit to run linux 2.6.32 drivers in userland processes, +which provides both long-term support for new hardware and safety against driver +bugs. diff --git a/faq/support/0-software.mdwn b/faq/support/0-software.mdwn new file mode 100644 index 00000000..4726147c --- /dev/null +++ b/faq/support/0-software.mdwn @@ -0,0 +1,5 @@ +[[!meta title="What software is available for GNU?"]] + + * Most (3/4) packages from [Debian](http://www.debian.org/) [GNU/Linux](http://www.gnu.org/gnu/linux-and-gnu.html) which aren't linux-specific ([Packages That Won't Be Ported](http://www.debian.org/ports/hurd/hurd-devel-debian)) are expected to work on GNU/Hurd too. See the database in . Notably, [GNOME](http://www.gnome.org), and [KDE](http://www.kde.org) work. See the [[porting/guidelines]] document for some common build problems and their solutions. + * If you can't fetch a package with "apt-get install ", try building it from source: "apt-get source && cd <package\_dir> && debian/rules binary". + * As of March 2013, 78% of Debian packages have been ported on the Hurd. Of course, bug testing is welcome. -- cgit v1.2.3 From 9d656bbe8f5fb2c3b9151da548f32ff12ae3f54a Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 From: Samuel Thibault Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 14:13:01 +0100 Subject: move more old stuff to current --- faq/0-still_useful.mdwn | 16 +++++++-- faq/old/old_faq.txt | 26 -------------- faq/old/old_hurd_faq.txt | 63 ---------------------------------- faq/support/2_gib_partition_limit.mdwn | 2 ++ 4 files changed, 15 insertions(+), 92 deletions(-) (limited to 'faq/support') diff --git a/faq/0-still_useful.mdwn b/faq/0-still_useful.mdwn index d98f98ed..96ea6f32 100644 --- a/faq/0-still_useful.mdwn +++ b/faq/0-still_useful.mdwn @@ -8,10 +8,20 @@ Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license is included in the section entitled [[GNU Free Documentation License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] -[[!meta title="Why is the Hurd useful?"]] +[[!meta title="What are the advantages with the Hurd over Linux/BSD?"]] -What are the advantages with the Hurd over Linux? (In general of course, nothing -in depth) +The Hurd will be considerably more flexible and robust +than generic Unix. Wherever possible, Unix kernel features have been +moved into unprivileged space. Once there, anyone who desires can +develop custom replacements for them. Users will be able to write and +use their own file systems, their own `exec' servers, or their own +network protocols if they like, all without disturbing other users. + +The Linux kernel has now been modified to allow user-level file +systems, so there is proof that people will actually use features such +as these. It will be much easier to do under the Hurd, however, +because the Hurd is almost entirely run in user space and because the +various servers are designed for this sort of modification. > Notably, flexibility for the user: > diff --git a/faq/old/old_faq.txt b/faq/old/old_faq.txt index 24127462..f6a4204b 100644 --- a/faq/old/old_faq.txt +++ b/faq/old/old_faq.txt @@ -85,11 +85,6 @@ partition on the first drive detected by the BIOS (or the second partition with GRUB 1). As Grub now has tab completion, there is not a lot of guess work. -?? Can I use partitions larger than 2GB? - -{ST} Yes. Disk drivers however currently do not support more than 2^32 sectors, i.e. -2TiB. - ?? How much swap do I need? {ST} The usual rule of thumb applies: the same amount as RAM, for instance. @@ -269,16 +264,6 @@ hung, it will not be able respond to its message port and thus, ps will wait forever. The `-M' option instructs ps to not gather information that would require use of the message port. -?? Where are ... - -{MB} `dmesg' is not available. You can read `/var/log/dmesg` instead. - -?? Why does the command `df' not work? - -{NHW} It does, you just have to tell it what filesystem to query. E.g. - - # df / - ?? Why are my translators dying? {NHW} Try passing the `-ap' flag to settrans. By default, settrans only @@ -364,12 +349,6 @@ reboot the system. ? Porting -?? What programs have been ported? - -{NHW} A lot, take a look at the Debian archive. Many programs, however, -do not necessarily need to be ported; they have just never been -compiled. - ?? Is porting easy? {NHW} Porting applications to GNU/Hurd is relatively easy assuming the @@ -382,11 +361,6 @@ thousand, however, on GNU/Hurd, there is no maximum and thus, this is not set. The correct thing to do is to submit a patch to the upstream author that allocates memory dynamically. -?? How can I help? - -{ST} Please see the contributing page: -http://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/contributing.html - ? Compiling ?? Where can I get the source? diff --git a/faq/old/old_hurd_faq.txt b/faq/old/old_hurd_faq.txt index 4ebe019b..20b4c260 100644 --- a/faq/old/old_hurd_faq.txt +++ b/faq/old/old_hurd_faq.txt @@ -16,73 +16,10 @@ Original Document by: Derek Upham Contents: -Q0. Where can I get the Unofficial GNU Hurd FAQ? -Q2. Where can I get a copy? -Q3. Why bother writing a new OS when we have Linux and 386/BSD? Q4. What's all this about Mach 3.0 (and Mach 4.0)? -Q5. Where can I find more information? -Q7. What sort of machines will run Hurd in the future? -Q8. What is the current development status? -Q9. What sort of system would we have if the Hurd was bootable today? ============================== -Q0. Where can I get the Unofficial GNU Hurd FAQ? - -The Unofficial Hurd FAQ (what you are reading now) is occasionally -posted to the USENET newsgroup, gnu.misc.discuss. It is also -available from - - http://www.enci.ucalgary.ca/~gord/hurd/hurd-faq.txt (Broken Link ?) - -If you don't have WWW access, you may send mail to me, Gordon -Matzigkeit with a subject line that reads: - - Subject: send hurd-faq - -You should receive a PGP-signed copy of the current version of this -document in a matter of minutes. - - -Q2. Where can I get a copy? - -To put it simply, you can't. It is still under development (by -Michael Bushnell, Roland McGrath and Miles Bader). It is almost, but -not quite, at the point where you can do real work on it. Keep your -fingers crossed. - -Some people have actually bootstrapped it, but the work is not easy, -and the current snapshot won't work until a new multiserver boot -mechanism is made. - -If you *really* want to try it, beware that it is still pre-alpha -code, and that it will likely crash on you. See Trent Fisher's Hurd -pages (under question 5) for the latest information. - - -Q3. Why bother writing a new OS when we have Linux and 386/BSD? - -For one thing, Linux and BSD don't scale well. Hardware designers are -shifting more and more toward multiprocessor machines for performance, -and standard Unix kernels do not provide much multiprocessor support. -The Hurd, on the other hand, runs on top of the Mach 3.0 micro-kernel -[[1]] from CMU. Mach was designed precisely for multiprocessing -machines, so its portability should carry over nicely to the Hurd. - -In addition, the Hurd will be considerably more flexible and robust -than generic Unix. Wherever possible, Unix kernel features have been -moved into unprivileged space. Once there, anyone who desires can -develop custom replacements for them. Users will be able to write and -use their own file systems, their own `exec' servers, or their own -network protocols if they like, all without disturbing other users. - -The Linux kernel has now been modified to allow user-level file -systems, so there is proof that people will actually use features such -as these. It will be much easier to do under the Hurd, however, -because the Hurd is almost entirely run in user space and because the -various servers are designed for this sort of modification. - - Q4. What's all this about Mach 3.0 (and Mach 4.0)? As mentioned above, Mach is a micro-kernel, written at Carnegie Mellon diff --git a/faq/support/2_gib_partition_limit.mdwn b/faq/support/2_gib_partition_limit.mdwn index 726605f9..3315cc08 100644 --- a/faq/support/2_gib_partition_limit.mdwn +++ b/faq/support/2_gib_partition_limit.mdwn @@ -11,3 +11,5 @@ is included in the section entitled [[!meta title="Is there still a 2 GiB Partition Limit ?"]] The 2 GiB limit has been removed in Debian GNU/Hurd. + +Disk drivers however currently do not support more than 2^32 sectors, i.e. 2TiB. -- cgit v1.2.3 From 18fdac0f9c911e25d45ebfcfb5e52ccd56071c16 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 From: Pino Toscano Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 16:24:35 +0100 Subject: misc changes --- faq/0-still_useful.mdwn | 2 +- faq/help.mdwn | 2 +- faq/running/xserver-common.mdwn | 9 +++++++-- faq/support/2_gib_partition_limit.mdwn | 2 +- hurd/translator.mdwn | 4 ++-- hurd/translator/examples.mdwn | 17 +++++++++-------- hurd/translator/hello.mdwn | 6 +++--- hurd/translator/mboxfs.mdwn | 9 +++++++++ hurd/translator/xmlfs.mdwn | 6 ++++++ 9 files changed, 39 insertions(+), 18 deletions(-) (limited to 'faq/support') diff --git a/faq/0-still_useful.mdwn b/faq/0-still_useful.mdwn index 96ea6f32..85608fe3 100644 --- a/faq/0-still_useful.mdwn +++ b/faq/0-still_useful.mdwn @@ -30,7 +30,7 @@ various servers are designed for this sort of modification. > $ cd /ftp://ftp.debian.org/debian > $ ls > -> personnal filesystem +> personal filesystem > > $ dd < /dev/zero > myspace.img bs=1M count=1024 > $ mke2fs myspace.img diff --git a/faq/help.mdwn b/faq/help.mdwn index 44e16d6b..8352dbfe 100644 --- a/faq/help.mdwn +++ b/faq/help.mdwn @@ -10,4 +10,4 @@ is included in the section entitled [[!meta title="How can I help?"]] -Please see the [contributing page](http://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/contributing.html) +Please see the [[contributing page|contributing]]. diff --git a/faq/running/xserver-common.mdwn b/faq/running/xserver-common.mdwn index 460c6e55..68058641 100644 --- a/faq/running/xserver-common.mdwn +++ b/faq/running/xserver-common.mdwn @@ -11,5 +11,10 @@ License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] [[!meta title="Normal users can't start X"]] -You need to run `dpkg-reconfigure x11-common` and select `Anybody` for -starting X as there is no way to detect console users currently. +This happens because currently there is no way to detect console users. + +On Debian GNU/Hurd systems, you need to run + + # dpkg-reconfigure x11-common + +and select `Anybody` for starting X. diff --git a/faq/support/2_gib_partition_limit.mdwn b/faq/support/2_gib_partition_limit.mdwn index 3315cc08..8d921b07 100644 --- a/faq/support/2_gib_partition_limit.mdwn +++ b/faq/support/2_gib_partition_limit.mdwn @@ -8,7 +8,7 @@ Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license is included in the section entitled [[GNU Free Documentation License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] -[[!meta title="Is there still a 2 GiB Partition Limit ?"]] +[[!meta title="Is there still a 2 GiB Partition Limit?"]] The 2 GiB limit has been removed in Debian GNU/Hurd. diff --git a/hurd/translator.mdwn b/hurd/translator.mdwn index 9bcdbcc5..d4eaf950 100644 --- a/hurd/translator.mdwn +++ b/hurd/translator.mdwn @@ -128,8 +128,8 @@ The [[concept|concepts]] of translators creates its own problems, too: * [pith](http://www.nongnu.org/hurdextras/#pith) * [pptop](http://www.nongnu.org/hurdextras/#pptop) * [run](http://www.nongnu.org/hurdextras/#run) -* [xmlfs](http://www.nongnu.org/hurdextras/#xmlfs) -* [mboxfs](http://www.nongnu.org/hurdextras/#mboxfs) +* [[xmlfs]] +* [[mboxfs]] Some of the above could be moved from hurdextras to [[source_repositories/incubator]], see the [[status page|open_issues/hurdextras]]. diff --git a/hurd/translator/examples.mdwn b/hurd/translator/examples.mdwn index ee766fbf..190b26ae 100644 --- a/hurd/translator/examples.mdwn +++ b/hurd/translator/examples.mdwn @@ -10,7 +10,8 @@ is included in the section entitled ## Setting up translators - HowTo -Translators can be got from hurd-extras +Additional translators can be got from [[source_repositories/incubator]], +or [hurd-extras](http://www.nongnu.org/hurdextras/). cvs -z3 -d:pserver:anonymous@cvs.savannah.nongnu.org:/sources/hurdextras co @@ -36,7 +37,7 @@ or ftp$ cd ftp.fr.debian.org ftp/ftp.fr.debian.org $ ls -* tarfs translator (needs uatime fix, 2010-08-25 → [git repo](http://github.com/giselher/tarfs)) +* [[tarfs]] translator You can use tarfs to mount (almost) any tar file (currently broken, 2010-08-25): @@ -52,14 +53,14 @@ You can even use it to create new tar files: This is not as fast as `tar czvf newfile.tar.gz all my files`, but at least it's more original. ;) -* cvsfs translator +* [[cvsfs]] translator $ settrans -ac cvsfs_testing /hurd/cvsfs cvs.savannah.nongnu.org /sources/hurdextras $ cd cvsfs_testing -* pfinet translator -- configuring your network interface +* [[pfinet]] translator -- configuring your network interface @@ -77,17 +78,17 @@ This is not as fast as `tar czvf newfile.tar.gz all my files`, but at least it's $ settrans -ac /cdrom /hurd/iso9660fs /dev/ -* ext2fs translator -- 'mounting' an ext2fs partition +* [[ext2fs]] translator -- 'mounting' an ext2fs partition $ settrans -ac /linux /hurd/ext2fs /dev/ -* unionfs translator +* [[unionfs]] translator To join "foo/" "bar/" and "baz/" in the directory "quux/", just do: $ settrans -capfg quux/ /hurd/unionfs foo/ bar/ baz/ -If you want to join even quux/ contents in the union itself, add -u as a translator argument. -You can add filesystems at run-time with the fsysopts command. +If you want to join even quux/ contents in the union itself, add `-u` as a translator argument. +You can add filesystems at run-time with the `fsysopts` command. diff --git a/hurd/translator/hello.mdwn b/hurd/translator/hello.mdwn index bd56cd76..440e1774 100644 --- a/hurd/translator/hello.mdwn +++ b/hurd/translator/hello.mdwn @@ -8,7 +8,7 @@ Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license is included in the section entitled [[GNU Free Documentation License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] -The *hello* translator is an example of a simple [[libtrivfs]]-based one-node +The `hello` translator is an example of a simple [[libtrivfs]]-based one-node [[translator]]. It is shipped as part of the [[Hurd source code -repository|source_repositories]], and exists in a single-threaded and a -multi-threaded variant. +repository|source_repositories]], and exists in a single-threaded (`hello.c`) +and a multi-threaded (`hello-mt.c`) variant. diff --git a/hurd/translator/mboxfs.mdwn b/hurd/translator/mboxfs.mdwn index e357294f..4ffcaab6 100644 --- a/hurd/translator/mboxfs.mdwn +++ b/hurd/translator/mboxfs.mdwn @@ -8,4 +8,13 @@ Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license is included in the section entitled [[GNU Free Documentation License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] +`mboxfs` is a translator meant to help people sorting emails. +It parses mailboxes in order to create a directory hierarchy representing +the contents of the mailbox. +Thus, you can sort emails per recipient, senders, date, and much more. +It supports attachments (put in a separate *attach* directory). + + +# Source + diff --git a/hurd/translator/xmlfs.mdwn b/hurd/translator/xmlfs.mdwn index 769c43ce..f57b9f2f 100644 --- a/hurd/translator/xmlfs.mdwn +++ b/hurd/translator/xmlfs.mdwn @@ -8,4 +8,10 @@ Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license is included in the section entitled [[GNU Free Documentation License|/fdl]]."]]"""]] +`xmlfs` is a translator that provides access to XML documents through the +filesystem. + + +# Source + -- cgit v1.2.3